tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post5687875825053630588..comments2024-03-21T19:03:19.133-04:00Comments on Where there had been darkness...: Roger Zelazny Book Review: CoilsJugularjoshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-42274761682863889542012-07-30T08:33:31.345-04:002012-07-30T08:33:31.345-04:00I'm actually somewhat pleased that I started m...I'm actually somewhat pleased that I started my Zelazny blogging before I had the full set of THE COLLECTED STORIES, simply because they are such a definitive work. If I had all of them when I started here, I don't know if I would have been moved to write about Zelazny, because Dr. Kovacs and his fellows got there first and did it better.Jugularjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-5812744132356003972012-07-30T08:24:56.464-04:002012-07-30T08:24:56.464-04:00If I recall correctly, that story with the alien m...If I recall correctly, that story with the alien monkey-dog was the very first Berserker story. I hated that one. It was opaque, it was hard to follow and not nearly as clever as he thought it was. <br /><br />My favorite Berserker story, though, is the one where this guy is playing a wargame with his ex when there is this Berserker on the loose. She has this mental block where she can't bring herself to exploit a strong position against him. She beats him and he realizes that the Berserker must be in the control room with her. So he rounds up the Security team and they go to confront the Berserker. It ambushes them but gets nailed by a bunch of drones set to blast anything that moved faster than a human could.<br /><br />If you'll forgive a digression, I thought that my girlfriend (and later wife) suffered from that same flaw until we played our first game of Magic the Gathering together. I gave her my white/red wall/direct damage to play in the big multi-player game, figuring that I'd get rid of everybody else and she'd be easy meat at that point. So I get rid of everybody else and Jen is like, "Okay, I fireball you for 23...and fork it! Whee!"Jugularjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-62083988554182732542012-07-29T19:20:47.550-04:002012-07-29T19:20:47.550-04:00I was a big fan of the Berserker stories back in t...I was a big fan of the Berserker stories back in the '70s, when I was a teenager. Recently I reread a few of the stories and found them underwhelming, to say the least -- first Saberhagan would tell us how fearsome and devastating the Berserkers were, and then some Berserker would easily be defeated via some trick or gimmick. In one story a Berserker is defeated when some kind of alien monkey-dog beats it at checkers. The Golden Age of sf is 13 . . .Chris DeVitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13954514417222660623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-67651466200600243692012-07-29T07:13:41.125-04:002012-07-29T07:13:41.125-04:00The reason you don't hear Saberhagen's voi...The reason you don't hear Saberhagen's voice in COILS is because of the way this novel was written. Zelazny wrote a brief outline, Saberhagen wrote a detailed outline, and then Zelazny wrote the full and final version. So that means that all the words are Zelazny's unless some phrases from Saberhagen's outline survived intact. In contrast, with DEUS IRAE, Zelazny and Dick alternated writing sections without revising each other's work, and the original manuscript showed the alternating type faces of Dick's versus Zelazny's typewriters.<br /><br />I own Zelazny's original hand-written outline of COILS. He then typed it, probably revised it a bit, and gave it to Saberhagen. After deciphering his scrawl on the original version, we published it in NINE BLACK DOVES, Volume 5 of THE COLLECTED STORIES OF ROGER ZELAZNY. So if you want to see how Zelazny's original idea differs from the final novel, read it there.<br /><br />ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-52041238765012052332012-07-28T08:08:49.339-04:002012-07-28T08:08:49.339-04:00Zach: Chapter 12 (the one where Ann is killed by W...Zach: Chapter 12 (the one where Ann is killed by Willy Boy) was FANTASTIC. Might have been my favorite part of the book, actually.<br /><br />I remember reading in essay Zelazny wrote where he said that after reading Clive Barker's BOOKS OF BLOOD that when he got to the end of each story that if he were writing it, he would start from the striking image and work his way backwards to get there, and that chapter was so well put together that I wouldn't be surprise if this is the method he employed to get it.<br /><br />Zach: But the thing I found most interesting about this book was Saberhagen's voice. And by that, I mean, I didn't even notice Saberhagen's voice. I've never read any of his stuff before, so I don't know what he's *supposed* to sound like, but if someone had handed me this book and told me it was written solely by Roger Zelazny, I never would have questioned it. Whereas, with Deus Irae, every time we switched over to one of Dick's sections it felt like I was getting punched in the face.<br /><br /><br />I gotta agree with this. <br /><br />Zach: Speaking of Saberhagen--is there a book of his you'd recommend for someone who might be interested in checking out his work?<br /><br />I'm partial to his Berserker stuff. I mentioned it a little bit when I talked about ITSELF SURPRISED, the Zelazny-penned Berserker story over here: http://where-there-had-been-darkness.blogspot.com/2011/05/roger-zelazny-book-review-itself.html <br /><br />He wrote that series for decades, and the tone of each book can vary radically, from straight up military SF to puzzle story to character study. <br /><br />I'm not as into his fantasy stuff, but I enjoyed the various Books of Swords when I read them. I haven't read beyond the first trilogy. <br /><br />I read one of his Dracula books, but I couldn't really get into it. That was ages ago, though, so perhaps that's more a reflection of my tastes at the time than of the quality of the book.Jugularjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-4546155937176122742012-07-27T17:42:40.462-04:002012-07-27T17:42:40.462-04:00I'm over a year late to this conversation, but...I'm over a year late to this conversation, but I just finished Coils, so I figured I'd chime in.<br /><br />First of all, I'd like to agree with you on a few points, Josh: 1) Yes, the book drags in the middle, unfortunately; 2) Willy Boy was wonderful; 3) Chapter 12 (the one where Ann is killed by Willy Boy) was FANTASTIC. Might have been my favorite part of the book, actually.<br /><br />But the thing I found most interesting about this book was Saberhagen's voice. And by that, I mean, I didn't even notice Saberhagen's voice. I've never read any of his stuff before, so I don't know what he's *supposed* to sound like, but if someone had handed me this book and told me it was written solely by Roger Zelazny, I never would have questioned it. Whereas, with Deus Irae, every time we switched over to one of Dick's sections it felt like I was getting punched in the face.<br /><br />That's not to say that I dislike Dick's writing; it was just such a drastic, noticeable change from Zelazny's. I imagine if I really tried to look for the parts in Coils that didn't sound like Zelazny I could probably find some of them, but without actively searching, I didn't even notice. And that was kind of awesome.<br /><br />Speaking of Saberhagen--is there a book of his you'd recommend for someone who might be interested in checking out his work?<br /><br />Oh, and Chris (K): Funny that you should mention "Mana From Heaven" here. I had a similar thought while I was reading Coils, and because of it, I half-expected Cora to be another person with paranormal powers, like Dancer (wasn't that her name?) in "Mana."Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07692070094174090593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-12630630210740810122011-06-08T19:15:41.016-04:002011-06-08T19:15:41.016-04:00Re: Crossovers. I would have really liked to see a...Re: Crossovers. I would have really liked to see a Dilvish/Jack of Shadows crossover, as long as we're talking gonzo hypotheticals.Jugularjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-15695701121584075852011-06-07T10:16:17.399-04:002011-06-07T10:16:17.399-04:00Chris K: It's certainly the better of the two ...Chris K: It's certainly the better of the two collaborations with Saberhagen. It's a good sf novel.<br /><br />I think I recall some commentary in the "And call me Roger" section, where they lament that the collaboration went *too* easily. I really think the book is a smooth melding of both their styles. It's not great literature, but it's a really fun with some very memorable characters.Jugularjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-48556660801059018682011-06-07T02:14:54.132-04:002011-06-07T02:14:54.132-04:00Coils is fun and engaging; I like it. Not sure I ...Coils is fun and engaging; I like it. Not sure I have much at all to add to your review, Josh, except a few random comments and a silly what-if:<br /><br />1. The opening scene reminds me of This Immortal in that we have the protagonist's companion questioning him about who he really is, and our protagonist being evasive (for different reasons, obviously; not sure it amounts to much more than that). But then . . .<br /><br />2. Chris K.: In This Immortal, Conrad's woman is also taken away from him, or so he's told -- by an earthquake -- and though he doesn't spend the book searching for her (since he thinks she's dead), it affects most of his motivations and actions throughout the story, until fate (or auctorial fiat) returns her. I'm not trying to make too much of a connection -- I just think it's an interesting parallel.<br /><br />3. Josh, you wondered about the point of the segment with Catlum; me too. I really wish there'd been a follow-up, though, because Catlum is an interesting character! No idea if the character was created by Zelazny or Saberhagen or both. Too bad they didn't develop him, or preferably give him a story of his own.<br /><br />4. Did Zelazny quit smoking while he was working on Coils? This is the only Z story I can think of where a character actually quits smoking (as opposed to smoking like a chimney throughout, or not at all).<br /><br />5. OK, putting on my tattered, neglected old fanboy cap, here's what Zelazny and Saberhagen SHOULD have written:<br /><br />BERSERKER vs. AMBER!!!!!!!<br /><br />Those arrogant Amberites are always traveling from one shadow world to another, and often enough Zelazny mentioned that the stars were different here or there, in this shadow or that -- so the rest of the universe was OUT THERE, eh? Despite the fact that the Amberites showed no interest in it. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Zelazny ever mentioning an Amber space program . . .) Would've served them right if a fleet of Berserker planet-busters had suddenly descended on Amber and the Courts of Chaos. Now, THAT would've been some awesome space opera.<br /><br />--Chris DeVitoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-80352680743517734552011-06-05T23:13:17.406-04:002011-06-05T23:13:17.406-04:00I've read COILS several times and have enjoyed...I've read COILS several times and have enjoyed it. It's certainly the better of the two collaborations with Saberhagen. It's a good sf novel.<br /><br />I find that COILS and MANA FROM HEAVEN blur together a bit in my recollection because both begin with a powerful character who has his woman taken away from him to precipitate the crisis. <br /><br />......Hmm. Then again, Sandow has his woman taken away from him at the start of ISLE OF THE DEAD. Mind you, she's already dead but reincarnated and taken away all before he realizes it, and he wants her back as soon as he gets the ransom note.<br /><br /> ...I think I'm sensing a recurrent Zelazny theme that I hadn't noticed before.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-31510363874721742572011-06-05T07:09:53.876-04:002011-06-05T07:09:53.876-04:00Heh heh heh. I mentioned my friend Greg, the profe...Heh heh heh. I mentioned my friend Greg, the professor of Authurian Lit in my review of HE WHO SHAPES. His undergraduate degree is in some kind of grammar specialization, so whenever he notices a typo of his own, he apologizes profusely for it, drawing attention to something that would have otherwise passed by unnoticed. <br /><br /><br />So, I'm curious. What did you think about COILS overall?Jugularjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03768939120752611597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-63012131237240954352011-06-04T01:20:11.245-04:002011-06-04T01:20:11.245-04:00Josh wrote: "If there is anything the intern...Josh wrote: "If there is anything the internet has taught me, it's that English teachers are as sloppy as anyone else in their personal correspondence."<br /><br />And in their blogs, too. A self-described "Philip K. Dick scholar" and English teacher does a Dick-worshipping blog called "Total Dick-Head." Here's a bit from his latest blog:<br /><br />"Over the next week I will endeavor to explore the academic work that has been written about Ubik so that we can bring that to bare one our examination of the text."<br /><br />Well. I imagine it's great to have a captive audience of hapless undergrads who have no choice but to endure it while you "bare one" while you endeavor to "examine the text" . . . if you like that sort of thing.<br /><br />Sheesh. So much for English teachers.<br /><br />--Chris DeVitoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6504598332261057441.post-85763890679413031642011-05-19T02:25:39.089-04:002011-05-19T02:25:39.089-04:00I just starting rereading Coils after many years, ...I just starting rereading Coils after many years, and the first few pages immediately reminded me of the beginning of This Immortal. Anyone else have the same feeling? I hadn't noticed it before.<br /><br />--Chris DeVitoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com